Doug Townsend from Sonshine Radio interviews Michelle Moriarty on what not to say to a grieving person.

Doug: Looking forward to today’s conversation – we’re talking with Michelle Moriarty, who is a grief expert. Michelle, are you on the line?

Michelle: I am, good morning. It’s good to be talking to you today.

Doug: We’re going to talk today around what to say and what not to say, and how do we support people who have or are experiencing grief, loss of a loved one and so forth. Can I ask you a quick question – what inspired you to start Grief Connect and all the great work you’re doing?

Michelle: Look, I’m a social worker, I’ve been a social worker for 20 years. I made it to 2018, and I was with my partner Nathan, and tragedy happened for us – he died in June 2018. So you can imagine, my whole world was flipped upside down, and I had to find out who I was again, figure out this new normal and deal with my grief in missing him. I continued on and ended up forming a group called the Grief Connect Young Widow Support Group, an online peer support group. Then unfortunately another tragedy occurred, my father died suddenly, and again my landscape changed yet again, so as a result of that I created the Over 55s widow support group, again peer support. Grief Connect formed out of my own experiences as a social worker and my own lived grief experience, and I also offer counselling and education programs, the Grief Language Project.

Doug: Grief is one of those things you kind of don’t know what to say – even now talking to you, even though I’m not going through grief, I almost feel like, what do I say, or what don’t I say, in response to your loss? So if we’re going to navigate this and have a conversation with someone who is grieving, who’s lost a loved one, do you have any tips or tricks? What should we say, or what shouldn’t we say?

Michelle: Well, firstly, let’s acknowledge that it’s really common that people feel awkward and uncomfortable having conversations about death and grief, and that’s one of the reasons we’re not sure what to say. Some of the hardest things I’ve had to deal with, and in people I’ve supported, one of my top ones is the statement “everything happens for a reason”. If you say that to someone who’s experienced a death, it can’t be taken in so well, because what it does is minimise their experience of grief and missing their person – especially when you’ve experienced a death, there’s often a long period where there’s no sense in it, we can’t understand why this has happened, it feels very unfair. So that statement can be a very challenging one to manage. Another is “I know how you feel” – and it’s important to acknowledge here that statements like these are said out of good intention, 99% of the time people say things because they want to help, it’s just around the wording and how that actually translates to the person who’s grieving. Another one, especially when it comes to being widowed – and being young-widowed myself and working with a lot of other widowed people – is having people say “don’t worry, you’ll meet someone else”. That can be a really harsh statement, especially when your mind isn’t even thinking about the future, or meeting someone else, and you’re really missing a person if you’re deep in grief. Another is “they’re in a better place now” – if you’re really missing someone, like I still continually miss Nathan, and someone says he’s in a better place, I think, actually, no, the better place is that he’s on this earth and alive and with us. It’s another statement that can be quite dismissive and not acknowledging of someone’s grief, because that’s the key in terms of supporting someone who’s grieving – although the language we use can be awkward and uncomfortable at times, it’s about acknowledging the person’s grief and recognising where they’re at.

Doug: And being able to actively listen to them?

Michelle: Absolutely, that active listening is so important – ensuring the person you’re supporting feels heard and that their feelings are acknowledged. It’s not about trying to fix them, because grief can’t be fixed practically and psychologically, it’s around how we learn to manage it and process it with time. There are lots of helpful things we can say instead of some of these blunt statements.

Doug: Okay, let’s take a quick break and come back and talk about some of the things we can say. [break] Michelle, you were starting to tell us about things we should say, or think about saying, when we’re talking to someone who’s grieving – can you continue on with that?

Michelle: Yeah, look, there’s lots of things we can say. One of the first things to think about is asking an open question as opposed to a closed question. A closed question is one that ends with a very short yes/no answer – it gives feedback, but it also shuts down a conversation. Whereas an open question is one where the response allows for more words and more explanation, which then means more understanding, empathy, compassion and connection. We can categorise our questions and statements into four different categories, and the first is around wellbeing – a beautiful question, and my absolute favourite, is “how are you travelling?” It really opens up a conversation, and it also gives the person you’re asking, who’s grieving, a position of control over how they respond – they can report back around their feelings, emotions or practical things, or they might not feel like talking about their grief that day and might prefer to talk about something lighter, like the weather. It’s just that open question that gives the message, I care, I have that care and concern and would like to help.

Doug: Sounds like you’re not painting them into a corner for a specific response – you’re giving them an open-ended opportunity to go where it is they’re feeling like going.

Michelle: Exactly, it really gives that person a sense of control over how they’re going to respond. And the flip to this is we can ask a question which really names up and acknowledges the person’s experience of grief – this might be more appropriate in a personal relationship, or where trust is already built – and that question can be, “where is your grief at today?” By actually naming up and acknowledging that there is grief here, that we acknowledge you’re missing your person, that in itself can be really powerful and helpful in the grief process.

Doug: When it comes to grieving, are there any common misconceptions – not just the things we say, but like, “you’ll be right in a set amount of time”? Obviously individual cases can last longer or shorter periods of time.

Michelle: Absolutely, and one of the statements that can be really harsh and unhelpful is “you need to move on, it’s been 12 months”, or “you need to move on, it’s been six months”. That’s a really common statement I hear a lot when I’m working in a counselling setting with clients, and it causes a lot of distress, because when it comes to grief there is no “moving on”. It’s around reframing our language – “moving forward” is a far better phrase. And if we think about grief and remove timeframes, because timeframes can be so unhelpful – for me, in my earlier grief, I’d read some literature that said by 12 months I should be okay, I should be able to move on. And I got to 12 months and nothing had changed, my grief was still extremely overwhelming, and I was wondering what was wrong with me. But actually, grief is a lifelong experience, and throughout that we learn to manage it with various strategies and ways of processing it, and our grief can lighten throughout that process.

Doug: So it’s something we may carry for the rest of our life, but we manage it in different stages, in different ways, depending on the season of life we’re going through.

Michelle: Exactly, and our focus can move and change, and our cognitive functioning, our brain functioning, can also move and change, and that sense of clarity can come back as we move through some of the grief fog that can happen for our brain.

Doug: That’s great. We’re going to dive back into this in a moment, we’re going to take a break. I’ve had a message come through, and if I can summarise it – people are experiencing different types of grief, whether it’s childhood grief, loss of a partner, breakdown in relationships or other things. Can you talk to us about the different types of grief we might experience?

Michelle: Sure. Grief can be defined as “the loss of” – and that loss of can be transferred to various situations in our life, it’s not always death-specific. I talk a lot about grief in relation to death, but grief can also be transferable to other forms of loss, such as divorce, loss of a relationship. It might be, especially in today’s day and age, loss of home, loss of finances, loss of employment. It might be loss of a pet. There are so many different forms grief can move through, and while the intensity and the levels can be very different, if you think of it personally – if that person is going through a loss that might be the biggest experience of loss they’ve had, of course it’s going to be important to acknowledge that, no matter the type of loss.

Doug: Yeah, and acknowledging loss, I suppose it comes back to language, doesn’t it – recognising that that person is actually grieving, and what that looks like for them.

Michelle: Yes.

Doug: If I suppose it’s still under the tangent of grief and loss – if someone has, say, lost a partner, whether through divorce or death, whatever – what about repartnering? Do some people move on quicker than others? Is it natural for that to happen, or is it natural for people to go, you know what, I never want to have another relationship again? Are there any norms or trends, and how do we support them as community?

Michelle: Sure – well, firstly, if we look at it around reframing our language from “moving on” to “moving forward”. I like to think of it as having many chapters in my life – Nathan was such a long and amazing part of my book of chapters, but life has continued to move forward, and for many widowed people, or people experiencing grief, time does move on whether we like it or not, even though sometimes it feels like it’s not moving at all. For me, repartnering has been a part of my journey forward, but it’s not necessarily for everybody. When it comes to grief, we all do it so very differently – how I grieve is going to be very different to how my mum is grieving, for example, because my dad also died, and my mum is also widowed, so we have very different experiences even though we’ve both been widowed. That moving forward can just look different, and it’s really important, if you’re supporting someone who’s grieving, to be mindful of your opinions and judgments around how they’re actually grieving, because it can be very easy to make an assumption or place a judgment, like “they’re not doing this right” or “they’re not doing it in these stages”. Actually, we just need to remember that everyone does it differently. Some people may be able to repartner – I chose to repartner around 18 months after Nathan died, and I’m now going to be getting married to my lovely fiancé this year.

Doug: Congratulations.

Michelle: Thank you. That was a part of my journey, and I also know lots of other widowed people who are not ready to repartner, and that’s not necessarily a part of their life choice going forward either.

Doug: I remember having a conversation with someone who had lost their spouse of a long time, and they moved on fairly quickly after their spouse had passed away. After a long period of time we had a conversation about why they moved on so quickly, and they talked about how, even though they had the grief and the loss of their spouse, because their spouse had been sick for so long they’d actually grieved together throughout that whole process. So when the spouse passed away, it was with the spouse’s blessing, and they felt like they had the okay to move on quickly if they wanted to, or felt to. So that was part of their experience. I think when it comes to grief as a community, it’s one of those things where obviously we need to be sensitive to individual needs and treat them individually, but is there anything we can do as a community besides words – any actions we can take to support someone who’s grieving?

Michelle: Well, it certainly comes down to the timeframe – if it’s really within those early days of grief. For example, myself, in the early weeks after Nathan’s death – and for much longer than a few weeks I was in a long period of shock – but in those very early weeks I had a lot of help with practical things I wasn’t able to do, such as cooking meals, I just wasn’t able to function very well and I required a lot of support. I allowed a lot of people to come to my home, and the community helped as an extension of that – for example, one of the mums from my child’s class arranged for other mums to do some meal prep, and I remember having laundry washing baskets full of prepared meals being walked into my home. People also offered to use their freezers so I could store some of that food to use as the months progressed. That community sense of support and ongoing contact was so important – social media was a real lifeline for me too, in terms of having people comment on my posts or send me private messages of support and love and strength. I wasn’t always able to respond, because my grief was so overwhelming and there were quite a lot of messages coming through, but if you’re a person supporting someone and they’re not able to respond, continue to show up for them – keep texting, keep checking in, because even though they may not be able to respond, it means they’re still receiving that support and connection anyway. So just continue on with the support.

Doug: I think that’s a great idea. We’re going to come back with one more spot, if that’s okay with you Michelle, and we’ll talk about access to resources for people who are grieving and how we can support them. [break] Can we wrap this up with where people can access grief support or resources, tips, tricks, tools for how we survive grieving?

Michelle: One of the most important things we can do, whether we’re the person experiencing grief or the person supporting someone who is, is to access resources. Most people have got access to the internet via phone or computer, so have a Google – search grief support, grief help, or “how can I support my grieving friend”, those sorts of things can be really helpful, because informing ourselves about what grief is, what it looks like, what it feels like, can really help us support other people. And if you’re someone surviving grief, I do have a seminar coming up on the 16th of March in Perth, Surviving Grief and Moving Forward, another opportunity to come and learn how to manage and process your own personal grief.

Doug: And live with hope and a future at the same time. I think arming ourselves with the different resources available – Lifeline, Beyond Blue – exploring what’s available in the area we live in, and making sure we have a good connection and support around us. From my own personal experience, and my family’s experience around grieving the loss of loved ones, just making sure you put your hand up and reach out – I think having the courage to do that is a good thing. What are your thoughts?

Michelle: That’s the hardest part, being able to name it up and say it out loud – “I’m not okay”, but it’s okay to not be okay. It takes a lot of strength to be able to do that. Reaching out and letting people, or someone trusted – even if it’s just one person – know if you’re needing help, or if your grief is too overwhelming, is so important. Another great resource is online peer support groups – there’s a whole range available, you can do a Google search or a Facebook search, and many of these groups are free. That peer support, sharing stories and experiences and learning from each other – or it might just be someone venting a post, and the support that happens underneath it – is really a life-changer when it comes to being able to keep moving forward.

Doug: Look, I think that’s a great idea, and some great suggestions there. If you’re experiencing grief at the moment, or today’s conversation has triggered you in any way, can I recommend you reach out to Lifeline on 13 11 14, and just make sure you put your hand up and have a conversation with someone about the things you’re wrestling with, if you really need a hand. For all of Michelle’s details, we’re going to have them on our website, we’ll have a copy of the podcast of this, and some of the suggestions she’s offered today will all be in written form, so you’ll be able to go and find that there and find Michelle’s details. Michelle, just want to say thank you so much for your time today, and thank you for sharing a little bit of your story and giving us the tips and tricks we need to support those who are grieving in our world.

Michelle: Thanks for the chat, Doug.

Doug: No worries, thank you very much. You’re with Doug, this is Tub Talk, and you’re on Sunshine.